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« on: September 13, 2010, 03:38:34 PM »

This seems like a psyop to discredit ministries that preach against the alien gospel... or is it a clue as to how the Dominionist elements may try to co-opt the UFO deception? Wheels within wheels....


Final Events: Interview with Nick Redfern
http://secretsun.blogspot...-interview-with-nick.html

Author and journalist Nick Redfern has a new book out called Final Events that's guaranteed to shake people up. It deals with a powerful secret society within the Intelligence community created with the intention of establishing a Christian Reconstructionist surveillance state. For what purpose?

Well... in order to protect America from demonic UFO pilots.

We're seeing a lot of this kind of thinking floating around out there. It may in fact become the dominant view of UFOs, given that Hollywood is preparing a huge slate of UFO invasion films. Is someone trying to tell us something or is this a reaction to the Recession and fears about illegal immigration? Or is there a plan to fake some kind of devastating alien invasion in order to unite the world around a common enemy?

I interviewed Nick to get the scoop...


Tell us about your book. What's the basic premise?

Basically speaking, Final Events is a study of a think-tank group comprised of personnel from within the U.S. Government, military and intelligence community that has existed in stealth for a surprisingly long time. The group believes that while the UFO issue is a very real one, they do not believe it has anything to do with literal extraterrestrials.
Rather, the group - which calls itself the Collins Elite - concludes that the "aliens" are, in reality, literal demonic entities that are trying to seduce us with a false lure of supposed alien technology, and to - quite literally - steal and farm our souls. The group claim to have discovered evidence that these demonic entities - that seem to utilize a weird combination of advanced technology and archaic rite and ritual - derive a form of "energy sustenance" from the human soul or life force.

In other words, they don't want to land on the White House lawn and help us, nor do they want to destroy us. Rather, they want to maintain the herd, and upon our physical deaths, extract the human life-force as sustenance. The Collins Elite believes this has been going on since the dawning of civilization and that the ET motif is the latest in a long line of deceptive images they have used, and that in the past have included gods, angels, Jinns, fairies, goblins, etc etc.

Since we're talking "demons" here is it safe to assume these are Christians?

Yes, they are all Christians, or became Christians after they came to accept the theory. As for their positions, we're largely talking about people in the Intelligence community - and a lot from the DIA in particular - and also Air Force Intelligence. There are a few of the older, original members left, but today, they have allegedly placed their research on-hold, due to a belief that a final battle between good and evil is drawing near, and that the UFO presence will be finally be revealed for what they believe it to be.
The most ominous thing is that there appear to be some people attached to the group who believe that to save the US from what they perceive as a Satanic threat, the US should be placed under a near-martial law situation with the nation ruled by an iron-fist that adheres to Old Testament style teachings and beliefs. I expand greatly on all this in the book.

How did they think they could fight these demons?

Their belief is that deep belief in, and acceptance of, the Christian God can literally keep the demons at bay. This is why some of the group have contemplated what should be unthinkable: forcefully changing the entire U.S. mindset to that of an Old Testament nature, as part of what I personally conclude is a misguided plan on their part to try and save our souls.

Did these people have any contact with people like John Todd or did they figure this out on their own?

They appear to have come to their conclusions in a number of ways, such as personal/group research; consulting old religious texts; drawing parallels between UFO encounters and other paranormal encounters; and clandestinely interviewing UFO witnesses very occasionally.

Can you give us a couple examples of how they acted on these beliefs?

They instigated a large-scale study of Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley in the late 1940s and early 1950s, believing them as being partly responsible for the ushering in of the UFO mystery in 1947 - Parsons via his "door-opening" issues and Crowley, after he contacted the alien-like LAM. The CE also established a large-scale investigation of the alien abduction phenomenon in the early 1980s that reportedly was of great interest to the Reagan Administration.

Can you name anyone involved in the group or anyone who's been involved with them?

Yes, all the people I interviewed are named in the book and speaking on the record. However, they are not big-names or known names. Rather, they are people who spent their careers working behind the shadows in the world of Intelligence and espionage.

What put you on to this particular story?

I was put onto this story by a Nebraska-based priest named Ray Boeche, who has an interest in UFOs and who worked with MUFON. Ray told me in an extensive interview undertaken nearly 4 years ago that in 1991 he had been clandestinely approached by people in the Department of Defense who were aware of this alleged demonic deception of a UFO nature and were very concerned by its implications, and of the fact that the Government was dabbling into these areas, and perhaps even anticipating some sort of Faustian pact with them. That set me on the trail that ultimately led to the research and writing of the book.

How do we square conspiracy theories that the gov't is promoting belief in "UFO space brothers" with this group?

Bear in mind that this is simply one think-tank group in the Government that has this belief. It's entirely possible - in fact, probable - that they are other groups that have come to different conclusions about the nature of the UFO phenomenon.

In other words, the CE does not secretly speak for the U.S. Government on the UFO issue. But it does appear to speak for certain players in the Government that may wish to do away with the Constitution and turn the U.S. into a closed-doors society, surveillance-driven, and to create a populace indoctrinated by Old Testament teachings.

Did they have any conflicts with other factions in the government?

Yes, the way it was worded to me is that there is something like a silent conflict going on in today's intelligence world - with some pushing for this Old Testament indoctrination of - and control of - the populace, with other factions wishing to bring us back from the brink and restore things to genuine freedom.

Is it safe to assume that the popularity of the "UFO/Demon" meme that we see out there is thanks to the CE?

Some of it may be, yes, via subtle pushes of data here and there. However, I think that it may be the case that many people who adhere to this view do so because they have come to their own conclusions, but without third-party influence.

Disturbing stuff.

If I were a more cynical kind of guy, I might almost think that this was all just another psyops group assigned to create pretexts for overthrowing the Republic. But it certainly fits into the overall secret war against the New Age meme as well.

In my experience these kinds of people aren't really afraid that the UFOs are filled with demons - they're afraid that there might be something out there that might challenge their religious programming- and their authority. It could be science, it could be other religions or it could be UFOs. Anything that picks at the festering scab of doubt that every fundamentalist works so hard to hide will always be painted in demonic colors.

Ironically, the only times in the Old Testament that we see flying vehicles they're always associated with Jehovah and his angels. But we're not supposed to talk about that anymore.

Either way, I think Final Events is a book all of us need to read.
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 04:05:45 PM »

 Enyone  Read  this  book  yet?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhUndecided
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 07:16:11 AM »

Very interesting.

But since when would martial law look like the Old Testament? And how could that possibly be a good idea... it would play right into the hands of some real satanists who have wanted that all along...

The rest of it may not be accurately reported, though. The author seems to think these people were simply trying to shut down alternative world views that threaten their religious beliefs, and that there is a "secret war" against the New Age movement ROTF.
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 11:31:40 AM »

humm I think I too will keep quiet on this until I learn more.....

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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 09:07:10 AM »

Heiser's review of the book:

Review of Nick Redfern’s Final Events

http://michaelsheiser.com...ck-redferns-final-events/

Nick Redfern, Final Events and the Secret Government Group on Demonic UFOs and the Afterlife (Anomalist Books, 2010)

Well, I finally carved out some time to review Nick Redfern’s latest book. I’m hoping you all went ahead and bought it and read it during the wait (and despite the [deliberately?] cheesy cover). It’s worth a read since it will stimulate discussion in ufology. But as I said a few weeks ago when I first brought it to your attention on this blog, I have mixed feelings about it. My reservations are not related to Nick’s effort, but because of the content. I apologize ahead of time for the inordinate length of the review.

1. Content Overview

1.1. The Collins Elite and their Work

Primarily by means of informants whose true identities are concealed, Final Events tells the story of a secret government cabal called the Collins Elite (CE). The CE was formed in response to interest in the work of occultists such as Aleister Crowley and Jet Propulsion Lab co-founder Jack Parsons. The CE came to believe that the magical / occult activities of these two famous occultists possibly open portals between the human world and the “other side” allowing passage of evil, demonic entities into our world. The CE reached the conclusion that these releases (or transgressions) had explanatory power for the wave of UFO sightings in the late 1940s and which have continued to this day.

As the CE began investigating what they came to consider a cause-and-effect relationship between these entities, UFOs and, as time went on, alien abductions, the group began to pursue research into other paranormal issues that were also associated with alien contact and abductions: out-of-body experiences, the nature of the soul / consciousness,  and life after death.

1.2. The Occult/Alien Endgame

Readers naturally wonder what the endgame is in this scenario, and the book doesn’t disappoint. Redfern’s information sources made it clear that the CE firmly believes that not only are the aliens who are thought by millions to be visiting earth and abducting people actually demons, but that these entities are controlling a process (involving humans) of disclosure. The goal of disclosure is quite sinister: to convince the public that ET life is real and that it has been in contact with humanity for some time. And this will of course make the idea put forth by wacky people of faith that aliens are demons look perfectly silly–when that is precisely what they really are. In order to meet the ET threat, or at least to stave off any deadly conflict, a new world order for global governance will have to be put in place. Evil demonic entities masquerading as aliens and wicked humans will run the new world order, thereby enslaving humanity. The alien goal is further described by the CE as the harvesting of human souls. That about covers it.

1.3. The Strategy of the Collins Elite

The CE is described as divided on what to do about all this. On one hand, there is a sense of urgency about stopping the enslavement of humanity and the soul stealing. Yet the CE has been afraid to publicize its findings, sensing that they would wreak social and spiritual havoc. Not only would an official government revelation that demons are real throw people into panic, but an announcement of the CE’s findings would amount to an endorsement of the Bible. End times hysteria on a massive scale would not be far behind. As a result of this predicament, Redfern details how certain members of the CE have in turn moved in the direction of doing all they can to re-establish what can only be called a Christian theocracy in the land. The logic here is that mass conversions would somehow result in a spiritual tide (of the right kind and moving in the right direction) to meet the demonic forces head on. (How that would *not* be Armageddon–or would be a better Armageddon — isn’t clear to me — but there’s a lot of thinking in the book that isn’t clear to me).

2. Content Analysis

2.1. The General Credibility of the Story

What can you say about a story that rises or falls on secret informants? Not a lot. Granted, the mode of information neither argues for or against the material. Nick of course knows this, and is up front about the nature of the material. Along the way, there are crumbs thrown here and there by his informants, mostly in the form of documents that affirm *pieces* of the narrative told by these mystery men — but those pieces tend to be quite innocuous and nothing surprising.. For example, there are documents that affirm that Jack Parsons had a top secret security clearance. Is that really unusual for the co-founder of JPL? There is documentation that the government was involved in having various occultists observed. Big deal. If you are watching Parsons you’re watching others associated with him. True, the intelligence community (and the CE) were interested in occult information and “abilities” — but that isn’t what we really need documented here. What we need is some actual data that shows a cause-and-effect relationship between these occult activities and UFO sightings and “alien abductions.” No such luck in that regard. This leaves me ambivalent toward the general credibility — an ambivalence that turns toward incredulity when I consider the “thinking” demonstrated by the CE.

2.2. Specific Problems

Ah . . . where to begin. There were a number of “this is silly” moments for me in the book with respect to the “research” of the CE. In my mind, the most disturbing thing about the book is that highly-placed insiders within the intelligence community could think so poorly — especially if they are Christians. Maybe I should stop being jolted by this, given that what passes for “serious” Bible teaching these days comes through folks who ought not be thought of as careful biblical readers much less biblical scholars. Think of it this way. The biggest non-fiction publishing sensation in the Christian orbit over the last decade was Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life. While I admire the intent, it’s pretty disturbing that a book whose message is that our lives have a purpose would rocket to bestseller status within the Church. Is it really that much of a revelation that the Bible says our lives have a purpose? Do people within the Church not know that? How could they miss it? Are Christians really that theologically illiterate? I guess the sales numbers answer that question.

2.2.1. Uncritical Assumptions About End Times

My illustration above was from the non-fiction world. The most successful fiction in Christian circles was of course Left Behind. How is it that millions of readers could simply absorb the ideas in Left Behind and have no idea that all its ideas derive from certain assumptions brought *to* the biblical text. Most Christians have no idea these ideas are *not* self evident realities in the Bible but only hold true if certain outright guesses are correct. Here’s a sampling of what I mean.

I ask again, are Christians really this theologically illiterate? Yes. And that includes those in the CE if the content of Final Events is any indication. Didn’t anyone in the CE ever really study eschatology? Aren’t they aware of how tenuous *any* position on end times really is? Did they not filter their “observations” and speculations through any other grid? Did they know any other grid even existed? If the Armageddon / Rapture position they cling to isn’t correct, what then? Was this given any thought at all? How might that position be used anyway to demoralize the Church even if it isn’t correct? Again, if the CE was so careless at analysis here, why should I trust anything else they’re thinking about? At least give some indication that end times has several possible scenarios (but maybe Tim LaHaye heads the CE!). At least Ray Boeche (a key contact person mentioned early in the book) is aware that there are issues here.

2.2.2.  A Cartoonish Demonology and Human-Centered Theology

I’ve put my cards on the table (see these archived posts) regarding demons as an explanation for UFOs and alleged alien abductions before. I consider it one of several possibilities (with respect to abductions, not UFOs) and a minority explanation at that. Theologically, I accept the reality of God and a spiritual world. That means I accept the reality of what Christians call demons and angels — but most Christians’ grasp of what is actually said or not said about demons and angels bears little resemblance to the Bible — and it would be based on the English Bible anyway, not the original language texts. Think I’m overstating this? Try this out: Did you know that the word “demon” is only mentioned twice in the Old Testament and never in the context of a hell or underworld? Did you know that the Hebrew term used for “demon” has no parallel in other Semitic languages for a denizen of hell or an underworld? Did you know there are no instances of demonic possession in the Old Testament? And what about the word for “demon” (daimon) in the New Testament — it can be used of any spirit being, good or evil. There are also no biblical verses that call fallen angels demons. I could go on quite a while. My point here is that I wonder if the brain trust in the CE is even aware of any of this. My guess is that they aren’t. Again, why should I trust their thinking if they can’t get this much right? Why should I trust their intuition or whispers about documentation when they have a document right in front of them called the Bible that they haven’t paid close attention to?

My real “demonic gripe,” though, is how silly the demonology of Final Events / the CE sounds when you really think about it. While I would agree that the entities of the spiritual world (good or evil) can and do interact with the human world (that’s biblical), that is a far cry from saying that demonic entities must wait on the acts of humans to carry out a plan or evil act, or that human activities determine the scope of demonic activity. Think about the ideas that the book poses to us by way of the CE thinking:

a) That the activities of Alister Crowley and Jack Parsons were the catalyst for the UFO waves of the 1940s (and subsequent). Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t find Crowley or Parsons or any such person frightening. I think they get far too much credit for power than they deserve. Crowley, the self-styled beast and most evil man in the world. BS. Try Hitler or Idi Amin or Stalin or Mao – Crowley was nothing compared to those guys. Let’s see, Mao’s arrogance and planning leads to tens of millions of deaths, and Crowley is having sex parties and practicing alchemy? Ooh, scary. What a crock. OK, they had sex parties and did incantations. Big deal. It’s amazing the PR machine that has been erected by occultists around these spiritual buffoons.

b) Even worse, can you see what’s going on in the demonic realm in this view? Demon: “Oh, crap, Parsons *almost* got that incantation right so we could come into the human realm. Maybe that human idiot will succeed next time. Until then, we’re just warming our fannies here in hell waiting for him to say the right words with the right intonation.” Give me a break. Again, while someone wanting to solicit evil for personal gain may succeed, that is quite different than saying one human (or even on orgy of occultists) hold the key to triggering cosmic events. Where is the biblical support for such an arrogant view of our own human importance that the spirit realm depends on us to act?

c) If this notion were true — that evil entities are somehow dependent on the work of occultists to act — then why do the innocent suffer? If it is true that evil needs human spell casting or solicitation to act, then it is equally true that without it — or with opposite human “force of godliness” — the demonic world is crippled. This is actually a violation of free will when it comes to spiritual beings, not to mention (again) an inflated view of human influence. Frankly, it amounts to cosmic nose-counting and a proportionately low view of the sovereignty of God. Did the battle of Normandy tip in favor of the Allies because just the right number of people prayed? Did the bubonic plague ravage Europe because the godly prayer count missed by five people? (Boy, I’ll bet that frustrated God). Did the people who survived 911 do so because a certain number of people prayed for them but the same number wasn’t reached for those who died? Or stated another way, if a few less people had prayed or gone to church or read their Bible, then the demons behind the 911 terrorists would have had a higher body count — right? Is this biblical theology? I say it’s not. It’s Hollywood demonology and (bad) pop theology. The idea that Crowley or Parsons or anyone else had to do a lot of mumbo-jumbo *in order to usher in* something that demons and other fallen celestial beings would want to do anyway is ridiculous. Who made us their handlers?

d) This poor thinking is also reflected in the CE idea that, to stem this tide, a theocracy needs to be re-instituted. What is the theological logic of this? That if the ruling elite are Christians, the demons will be powerless? Or that if a majority of U.S. citizens are Christians, then God can or will act? (This makes God capricious to say the least ["I won't intervene against evil unless enough humans measure up"] or powerless to act unilaterally ["I cannot intervene against evil unless enough humans measure up"]). You can have that God. And how small-minded is this approach — to presume that the fate of humanity lies in the hands of the Church in the United States? What a muddled theological mess.

2.2.3. An Uninformed and Theologically Naive View of Human Souls

The chapters (22-25) dealing with souls and the presumed knowledge of the soul are especially bad with respect to biblical theology and any sort of thoughtful theological approach. The CE bolsters its ideas without any appeal to exegesis of the Hebrew or Greek texts and no citation of scholarly sources. But wait, aren’t books by theologians and ancient theological authorities found in these chapters? Yes — and I’ll stand by what I said above. All of this source material is English-Bible based and amounts to theological speculation or antiquated traditions, not exegesis. And I’m nearing the point where the last person I want to see quoted about the Bible is Augustine. Augustine didn’t know Hebrew or Greek (and he is quoted as hating Greek). He did not know how to interact with the original language of the Scripture text. A fledgling seminary student who has a year of Hebrew and Greek under his/her belt could do more in the text than Augustine. Everything he does is based on the Latin Vulgate or Church traditions. Period. He is only viewed as an authority because he was a political-ecclesiastical heavyweight, not because he could delve into the Scripture text. Besides that issue, biblical scholars, textual critics, and archaeologists have actually learned a lot in the past 1500 years that Augustine couldn’t have known (and that goes for Aquinas and the Reformers as well). My point isn’t that these people were dumb. They weren’t. They were brilliant. But their limitations and resources are dramatically transparent to anyone in these fields. Just because they said something doesn’t mean it should be considered authoritative or, in some instances, even coherent.

The fact is that the Bible never actually tells us where the soul comes from. It merely presumes that a human being is only a complete human being when body and “life force” (Hebrew: nephesh) are united. Modern scholars/theologians continue to struggle with how to understand and articulate biblical anthropology. This is especially true now that brain science and neuroscience have produced findings that need to be factored into any such articulation. (See here for a whole series of posts I wrote on this on my Naked Bible blog).

I see no evidence that the CE gave the biblical text any thought at all when articulating their demonology or views of anything else. They are guided by tradition and popular theological speculation. That just doesn’t cut it. There is zero biblical warrant for thinking a soul can be taken or stolen from its body, or sucked away after death from the Creator who made it and gave it in the first place. More Hollywood theology. Would someone yank the CE away from the boob tube?

I know it may sound startling, but I could go on. I’ll just have mercy and stop here.

3. Impressions

My suspicion with the storyline of this book (and, again, I view Nick Redfern as merely an honest reporter) is that its ending has a sinister intent. I think the storyline is a set-up. It stinks like a ufological trajectory of the political Leftist strategy to cast Christians (and pious Jews) as clandestine fascists. Why is it that a much more coherent possibility (that UFOs are the result of decades of effort put into man-made  technologies developed by gifted human scientific minds) is so easily dismissed in favor of Cartoon Network demons? Because when the military industrial complex is perceived to have the country in its grip (with or without some sort of “alien disclosure”) the ufological community will now know who’s responsible: the CE and its Christian theocratic fascists. This means that the Collins Elite, if it is real and if it is made up of Christians, could simply be a bunch of witless dupes that are being used to advance the propaganda I just described. Since they come across as tragically illiterate when it comes to biblical theology, that seems sadly possible. On the other hand, this group (and boy, doesn’t that term bring back Facade memories?) might be willing participants in the creation of this meme, or perhaps an intelligence fiction used as a storyline vehicle.

In any event, if you care about what the ufological community is thinking about, you should read the book  — sort of like Belshazzar’s handwriting on the wall.

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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 09:58:38 PM »

Quote
c) If this notion were true — that evil entities are somehow dependent on the work of occultists to act — then why do the innocent suffer? If it is true that evil needs human spell casting or solicitation to act, then it is equally true that without it — or with opposite human “force of godliness” — the demonic world is crippled. This is actually a violation of free will when it comes to spiritual beings, not to mention (again) an inflated view of human influence. Frankly, it amounts to cosmic nose-counting and a proportionately low view of the sovereignty of God. Did the battle of Normandy tip in favor of the Allies because just the right number of people prayed? Did the bubonic plague ravage Europe because the godly prayer count missed by five people? (Boy, I’ll bet that frustrated God). Did the people who survived 911 do so because a certain number of people prayed for them but the same number wasn’t reached for those who died? Or stated another way, if a few less people had prayed or gone to church or read their Bible, then the demons behind the 911 terrorists would have had a higher body count — right? Is this biblical theology? I say it’s not. It’s Hollywood demonology and (bad) pop theology. The idea that Crowley or Parsons or anyone else had to do a lot of mumbo-jumbo *in order to usher in* something that demons and other fallen celestial beings would want to do anyway is ridiculous. Who made us their handlers?

"Low view of the sovereignty of God"  duh

Does Heiser suggest the Biblical narratives of intercessory prayer to be un- Biblical or does he mean the prayers of the saints are null and void, mere fantasies of the body of Christ?

Strange way to conclude the "inflated human influence" and relationship with evil entities he defines as ridiculous.
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 10:56:24 PM »

I'm glad you said that Whrose,
I have this odd feeling about Michael Heiser.....can't put my finger on what it is, but something does not sit right when I read what he writes.....don't know the man so it's not that, but there's something....?? Huh Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 08:05:29 AM »

Quote
c) If this notion were true — that evil entities are somehow dependent on the work of occultists to act — then why do the innocent suffer? If it is true that evil needs human spell casting or solicitation to act, then it is equally true that without it — or with opposite human “force of godliness” — the demonic world is crippled. This is actually a violation of free will when it comes to spiritual beings, not to mention (again) an inflated view of human influence. Frankly, it amounts to cosmic nose-counting and a proportionately low view of the sovereignty of God. Did the battle of Normandy tip in favor of the Allies because just the right number of people prayed? Did the bubonic plague ravage Europe because the godly prayer count missed by five people? (Boy, I’ll bet that frustrated God). Did the people who survived 911 do so because a certain number of people prayed for them but the same number wasn’t reached for those who died? Or stated another way, if a few less people had prayed or gone to church or read their Bible, then the demons behind the 911 terrorists would have had a higher body count — right? Is this biblical theology? I say it’s not. It’s Hollywood demonology and (bad) pop theology. The idea that Crowley or Parsons or anyone else had to do a lot of mumbo-jumbo *in order to usher in* something that demons and other fallen celestial beings would want to do anyway is ridiculous. Who made us their handlers?

"Low view of the sovereignty of God"  duh

Does Heiser suggest the Biblical narratives of intercessory prayer to be un- Biblical or does he mean the prayers of the saints are null and void, mere fantasies of the body of Christ?

Strange way to conclude the "inflated human influence" and relationship with evil entities he defines as ridiculous.
I would say that intercessory prayer is about a person putting himself in the place of another person before the throne of God.

The fact of the matter quoted above is that prayer is an obedience issue, not a numbers issue.
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2010, 08:20:23 AM »

Yeah..something puzzles me too.

But hey, its his book review and I have not read the book and MH has. He does make some good points and possibly I have misunderstood some of his finer points? The bottom line, the book is fiction. I doubt anyone forms their theology on fiction but it obviously gives him a platform to discuss his understanding of demonology from a Biblical perspective. Reminds me of the Left Behind series and other fiction books such as the ones written by J. Rosenberg. While the author weaves a story that may contain some of his constructs about Biblical theology or eschatology the work is plainly fiction.

Has anyone here read it?





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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2010, 10:05:01 AM »

My apologies forum.

This book is based on a series of interviews with paranormal researcher Ray Boeche.

My fiction comments are out of line and made in ignorance of the book and topic.

Sorry about that!
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2010, 04:47:12 PM »

Though Heiser's theological points in this review are certainly debatable (worthy of a seperate thread, methinks), my main takeaway is this part:

Quote
I think the storyline is a set-up. It stinks like a ufological trajectory of the political Leftist strategy to cast Christians (and pious Jews) as clandestine fascists...

... Because when the military industrial complex is perceived to have the country in its grip (with or without some sort of “alien disclosure”) the ufological community will now know who’s responsible: the CE and its Christian theocratic fascists. This means that the Collins Elite, if it is real and if it is made up of Christians, could simply be a bunch of witless dupes that are being used to advance the propaganda I just described.

I think this scenario fits in with the idea (maybe even plot) that Dominionism may soon dominate the American social and political landscape (it kind of already does, just not "openly"), and that the inevitable backlash against that paradigm will pave the way for the Antichrist...


Lots of ways this could play out...
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 05:02:52 PM »

Something strange for sure!

Thanks brother Dave for bringing out this point. I listened to PID radio concerning this topic as well.
Derek and Sharon agree.

But sometimes I wonder....will dominionism take the powerful stage that many suggest, or remain a political viewpoint of a minority and at the worse an invitation for apostasy?

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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 07:44:47 PM »

Though Heiser's theological points in this review are certainly debatable (worthy of a seperate thread, methinks), my main takeaway is this part:

Quote
I think the storyline is a set-up. It stinks like a ufological trajectory of the political Leftist strategy to cast Christians (and pious Jews) as clandestine fascists...

... Because when the military industrial complex is perceived to have the country in its grip (with or without some sort of “alien disclosure”) the ufological community will now know who’s responsible: the CE and its Christian theocratic fascists. This means that the Collins Elite, if it is real and if it is made up of Christians, could simply be a bunch of witless dupes that are being used to advance the propaganda I just described.

I think this scenario fits in with the idea (maybe even plot) that Dominionism may soon dominate the American social and political landscape (it kind of already does, just not "openly"), and that the inevitable backlash against that paradigm will pave the way for the Antichrist...


Lots of ways this could play out...


I agree, I have this theories:
  I think this is related to put  into the scenario a group of facist-christians who will be blamed to interfere with the contac with "advanced creatures"

 maybe the aliens are just(or and) hidden human technology which will be used to fake an invasion and discredit christians via this supposed group CE.

Jus think about al qaeda and how some people has claimed that CIA was invoved into their creation,.... why if this CE is the same? just a made up group with insane people being recruited to form a group of terrorist and then a false flag attack of whatever?
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2010, 07:49:48 PM »

I would say that intercessory prayer is about a person putting himself in the place of another person before the throne of God.

The fact of the matter quoted above is that prayer is an obedience issue, not a numbers issue.
yeah that is a complicated part, I think he argues the point in which they take human influence as a matter of spells and magic words, just remember that when Jesus prayed he said -be your will not mine-, so praying is not spell casting but a sitation of relation with God, I think  that what he sais about hollywood theology is right and needs to be remarked, because in every movie is being shown dramaticly these days...
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2010, 08:10:24 PM »

I would say that intercessory prayer is about a person putting himself in the place of another person before the throne of God.

The fact of the matter quoted above is that prayer is an obedience issue, not a numbers issue.
yeah that is a complicated part, I think he argues the point in which they take human influence as a matter of spells and magic words, just remember that when Jesus prayed he said -be your will not mine-, so praying is not spell casting but a sitation of relation with God, I think  that what he sais about hollywood theology is right and needs to be remarked, because in every movie is being shown dramaticly these days...

good point.

Hollywood demonology is full of hype tis true.

Am not elevating mans abilities at all, but know for a fact that humans do contact and channel evil entities and I do not view this activity as benign like MH suggests in his comments.

The first recorded story I think was King Saul and the Witch of Endor. Something is getting opened up in the transmission...whether it's a portal? who knows???

The Lord forbids necromancy and divination and for a good reason, our understanding of the danger may not be complete.
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Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2010, 08:35:26 PM »

I would say that intercessory prayer is about a person putting himself in the place of another person before the throne of God.

The fact of the matter quoted above is that prayer is an obedience issue, not a numbers issue.
yeah that is a complicated part, I think he argues the point in which they take human influence as a matter of spells and magic words, just remember that when Jesus prayed he said -be your will not mine-, so praying is not spell casting but a sitation of relation with God, I think  that what he sais about hollywood theology is right and needs to be remarked, because in every movie is being shown dramaticly these days...

good point.

Hollywood demonology is full of hype tis true.

Am not elevating mans abilities at all, but know for a fact that humans do contact and channel evil entities and I do not view this activity as benign like MH suggests in his comments.

The first recorded story I think was King Saul and the Witch of Endor. Something is getting opened up in the transmission...whether it's a portal? who knows???

The Lord forbids necromancy and divination and for a good reason, our understanding of the danger may not be complete.
yeah, but I think that all what happens in the other realm is under Gods judgement in a higher level, I think that people who tryes to contact with spirit does it to their own demise, and whatever that happens with evil spirits is related not to casting spells , but because peoples allows the evil to fall over them, just in a manner that people who is not believer is in danger because even from an evil thought that they can be influenced by spirits,
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 09:12:38 PM »

yeah, but I think that all what happens in the other realm is under Gods judgement in a higher level, I think that people who tryes to contact with spirit does it to their own demise, and whatever that happens with evil spirits is related not to casting spells , but because peoples allows the evil to fall over them, just in a manner that people who is not believer is in danger because even from an evil thought that they can be influenced by spirits,

Amen brother. It is so important for the body of Christ to know this, to understand this, and to walk forward trusting Jesus today and especially in the coming days ( and night ) ahead of us.

About those portals though. Could be a phenomena related to multiple dimensions which our human senses can not fully perceive. I believe the Lord has placed definite boundaries that are breached in disobedience.

Are the "lying signs and wonders" man made or are they manifest from a spiritual dimension?  Perhaps both!
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Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2010, 09:24:15 PM »

2 Thessalonians 2:9
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:13-14
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

He who has been given this authority by the dragon

He must be going to perform some wild supernatural stuff to out rate a populace conditioned by Hollywood

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Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2010, 09:31:37 PM »

" which he had power to do in the sight of the beast"

in the sight

enōpion

1) in the presence of, before

a) of occupied place: in that place which is before, or over against, opposite, any one and towards which another turns his eyes
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Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2010, 09:57:58 PM »

"he maketh fire come down from heaven

Interesting vision. Fire coming down from the heavens. This is not some bomb going off in the air created by man!

heaven

Strong's G3772
ouranos

1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it

a) the universe, the world

b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced

c) the sidereal or starry heavens

2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

We can rule out this fire is NOT coming from God in Heaven because the "great dragon has been cast out into the earth"
in Revelation 12.
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Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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